Transcript of the first organized Geekchat - Topic: The Origins Awards

 Tom Vasel: I was curious to know people's thoughts on the 2005 Origins Awards nominees...

Tom Vasel: Board games are: Bootleggers, Betrayal at House on the Hill, Ticket to Ride, Dos Rios, and War of the Ring.

Tycho: Strange choices as if ... the people voting had played only a few games out of the year.

Fizzix: Betrayal at House on the Hill?!

Tycho: Dos Rios? OK game but seemed an arbitrary choice.

rkalajian:: Out of all of those, I've only gotten to play TtR. A great game in my opinion.

Fizzix: I say "What about Goa?"

Karlsen: Of the ones that I know it is a bit of mixed bag going from light to quite heavy.

Tom Vasel: I just wonder if anyone has ever said "Oh, this game has won an Origins award, I think I'll buy it!"?

nnf1: Not me.

Fizzix: The other ones seem reasonable.

RooieKazooie: I took a look at their jury voting. It seemed a little odd with Betrayal getting 20 votes while Struggle of Empires got none.

Tom Vasel: While not the choices I would have made exactly, I thought they did better than normal...

Fizzix: That's a good point. I've never bought anything based on Origins nominations or awards.

GROGnads: Me neither, Tom.

rkalajian:: Probably not me, either.

RooieKazooie: Here is a link to the number of votes each game got: http://www.aagad.originsgames.com/index.pl/juryresults.html

bbenston:: I definitely give a game a leg up in buying decisions if it's SdJ...

lexen:: Origins, heavy??? Where? Which???

Melissa: Fraser and I look at the SdJ winners/nominees but are more likely to look at comments on the geek as a final check.

RooieKazooie: Unfortunately, yes I did buy a game because it had won the Origins award.

GROGnads: I mean there are plenty of times that the GAME 'featured' was of NO INTEREST as far as I'm concerned.

Melissa: Unfortunately, Rooie?

RooieKazooie: It was just over a year ago now. I was very interested in board games and had browsed the geek quite a bit but didn't have access to the net at that time.

Tom Vasel: Rooie, what game was that?

RooieKazooie: Sid Meier's Civilization

bbenston:: Games 100 is good, but I weight it a lot less.

Karlsen: For wargames I would certainly look seriously at Origin winners, but with your more Euro type game I would have to say No - independent research first.

Tanrec:: I really don’t care about awards.

nnf1: I don't even take SdJ seriously.

nnf1: I'm with Fraser-independent research and recommendations from like minds.

rkalajian:: I don't think awards really factor into my choices at all.

bbenston:: For me, theme and cool bits end up trumping almost everything else anyway.

Tycho: But in the US/UK I don't think SdJ pulls much weight either.

Tycho: Present company excepted.

Tom Vasel: So what awards do people take seriously besides the Spiel des Jahres?

Tycho: I'm fortunate enough to be able to play a lot of games when new, so the awards come in too late to influence my decisions to buy.

lexen:: The only awards I take seriously are the top 50 here at the geek!

bbenston:: Nice, Tycho.

RooieKazooie: I also didn't know where I could buy the German games I had seen on the geek.

Tom Vasel: So, of those five, which should win?

Tycho: Of the ones last year, the IGA did seem to accord with my own opinions the closest.

Fizzix: Ouch tough luck on that Rooie, one of Eagle's weaker products...

Tom Vasel: I think Ticket to Ride should win, but I do give a nod to War of the Ring.

Sumo: War of the Ring should win. Suits the audience.

RooieKazooie: So back to my story. I then went into the local toy shop not expecting much,

GROGnads: well I'd like to GET some of them 'bits' from that Civ game.

rkalajian:: I would think TtR or WotR.

Tom Vasel: The card game nominees are: Camelot Legends, Cthulhu 500, Hex Hex, Space Shuffle, and Station Master.

rkalajian:: I haven't played WotR yet, but I’ve opened the box, read the rules, and fumbled with the bits.

RooieKazooie: And I saw civilization there. I really wanted a board game. But I wasn't sure about getting it. Then I saw all those awards it had won on the front of the box. I ended up buying it.

lexen:: I think TtR is one of those games that people either love or hate (like settlers).

Fizzix: I haven't met many people who think that War of the Ring is anything more than eye candy. But I haven't played it.

rkalajian:: Station Master got nominated?

Fizzix: Space Shuffle is AWFUL!!

Sumo: Check the comments and ratings, Fizzix.

Fizzix: You have to score every time you play a card.... it's ridiculous.

rkalajian:: OH wait...I’m thinking Slow Freight...never mind

GROGnads: I agree that WotR is a strong contender but we still have lots of GAMES about to be released still.

Tom Vasel: B{lexen::, I'll disagree with you there. I think that there are a lot of people who think TtR is merely OK. I've met very few people who HATED it.

rkalajian:: I was trying to say that the IGA awards seem to be for more gamer's games.

Karlsen: I'd have to say Ticket to Ride or War of the Ring as well, but I haven't played Dos Rios or Bootlegger yet.

Melissa: I don't know that TtR is meaty enough to hate. (I enjoy it, but it's light light light).

bbenston:: Wwhy doesn't RG submit games for origins awards?

RooieKazooie: People who don't play board games from the looks of it

Fizzix: People who live in Columbus?

Karlsen: Maybe it's my age or to excuse the pun, my gaming origins, but I still see the Origins awards primary geared towards Wargames

Fawkes: Chris Farrell had a Geeklist called "The perils of hallucinogens; or, the Origins Awards"

Fawkes: I think that sums it up pretty well :-)

GROGnads: well ORIGINS is more like for NON ''Euro'' games

Fizzix: I got an Origins book in the mail this week and they have some cool things going on.

Tom Vasel: All right, everybody agrees that the Origins Awards have been, for the past several years, a big joke. But even those these games they picked this year aren't possibly the best (TtR and War of the Ring excepted), aren't the ones they picked this year a step in the right direction?

Melissa: Fraser, I think wargames too -> maybe it's because we've never been there though? I think GenCon for RPGs, Origins for wargames, Essen for Euros.

Fawkes: For the traditional audience of Origins, which I believe is RPGers, Camelot Legends and WotR should appeal the most

RooieKazooie: But if its for wargamers how can a euro game with war gamish elements like Struggle get no votes

Fizzix: They have a "play with the designer" event. You can play TTR with Alan Moon and RoboRally with the Richard "More than just MTG" Garfield.

Tycho:I suspect the people voting hadn’t played it

Sumo: Well there is nothing stopping them or anyone else trying to rebuild their rep.

GROGnads: okay I've been saving this for HERE and now http://home.swbell.net/cmcedit/awards/

Fizzix: Ok Tom I'll give you "step".

Tom Vasel: War games nominees are: Memoir '44, Axis and Allies: D-Day, Soldier Raj, Sword of Rome, Gettysburg: Badges of Courage

GROGnads: well I'd VOTE for M'44 and Gettysburg

Fawkes: Wow, in historical wargames, there's no Europe Engulfed, and Rommel in the Desert has no votes?

Tycho:Actually, says "historical board game" ... I’ve been told off before for calling M44 historical

Fizzix: Haven't played any of them (wargames) so I'll just listen to you all.

Sumo: Rommel is a reprint, no?

RooieKazooie: EE may have been last year. And GMT may not have submitted it

RooieKazooie: Rommel was up for voting but had no votes

Tycho:the only one there I have played is M44 ... certainly worthy of garlands

Tom Vasel: Yes, my wargamer friends are howling that Memoir and Axis and Allies D-Day were even included. Apparently there not "wargamish" enough.

MikeMKH Rommel is reprinted (I have it).

Fawkes: Yes, Rommel is a reprint, but it's on their list?

Fawkes: This is the site of the people who give out the Origins awards if it matters: http://www.aagad.originsgames.com/

Tom Vasel: Grog, thanks for the link to the awards site. I didn't realize there were so many different awards?

GROGnads: yeah me either Tom

Karlsen: Chris's list as mentioned by Fawkes - The perils of hallucinogens; or, the Origins Awards http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist.php3?action=view&listi...

Fawkes: "Mission Statement : The purpose of the Origins Awards is to recognize excellence in gaming products." How generic.

Tom Vasel: Does Origins make any money from the awards, like the SdJ jury does?

Sumo: I doubt it Tom.

GROGnads: oh and I always THOUGHT that the 'Origins' awards were just BACK slapping for those ''in the know''

Fizzix: I think they need to rethink their mission, they might as well include "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life...etc....

Tycho:Grog, there is an Austrian award that's not listed .. Einfach Genial won last yr

Melissa:: Fawkes, maybe they have an award for the best poker chips too?

GROGnads: we should HAVE a ''People's Award'' for gaming

Tom Vasel: Well, from what Anye Sellers said (when she was involved in the process), and from what others I've read about in other forums (such as at www.RPG.net), there is apparently a lot of infighting between Origins members.

Sumo: Thee is always infighting!

Fawkes: "Fellows of the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts and Design (AAGAD) are published game designers, writers, artists, and other game creators. Any person with a verifiable published credit for writing, design, sculpting, illustration, graphic design, editing, line development, or brand management in three or more gaming products is eligible for admission to the Academy."

Fawkes: I think that's the problem there. It says nothing about playing the games, just being involved in the process somehow.

MikeMKH Hmmmmm.....BGG awards..........cool

Tom Vasel: I have a low opinion of the "esteemed" Academy.

Fawkes: The process of creating some kind of game.

Fawkes: I agree with Tom. The IGA panel has a lot more cred than this "Academy"...

Sumo: Good point

Fawkes:, but it is tough to enforce. How many Oscar voters watch the movies?

Tom Vasel: OK, people keep talking about a BGG game award, and it sounds cool. But do we really need another award? Doesn't the IGA pretty much represent what the BGG likes?

Sumo: No, I don't think it does.

Fawkes: Sumo - Not a lot, which is why Scorsese has never won an Oscar, eh?

G{Sonja: What is the IGA?

RooieKazooie: IGA is the International Gamers Awards.

Sonja: - http://www.internationalgamersawards.net/

Karlsen: Tom - It would be kind of cute, but realistically no we probably don't need YAGA

nnf1: Honestly shouldn't we ask what are the purpose of these awards?

Tycho:yes I think the IGA does represent what BGG people like, though don't forget we are a minority of a minority

spacerx: I don't think that awards are particularly helpful when making purchase decisions

nnf1: TO me whether its film, art, games it just seems like we have awards as some sort of 'sporting competition'

RooieKazooie: A BGG award would be quite different as there would be many more people voting

Tom Vasel: "YAGA"?

Karlsen: Yet Another Gaming Award

Fizzix: I thing most awards are just self serving publicity engines.

Tycho:it still comes down to the quite subjective view of the people voting, with no guarantee their likes are the same as yours

spacerx: a BGG award would be just one more thing for people to argue about

MikeMKH I think awards would be good, a nice way to say thanks (and maybe get more Geekspeaks).

nnf1: But the problem is that the create publicity for the participants and as they say any publicity...

Melissa: spacerx: true - but would there be advantages to outweigh the annoying bickering? Could another award add anything or are we happy with the IGA/SdJ?

spacerx: it's publicity for manufacturers, but not gaming as either an industry or a hobby

Tycho:but any award on a box probably helps sales

Karlsen: A BBG award process would just be an excuse for flame wars

Fawkes: Melissa - don't forget the DSP, which is more important than the SdJ to some (like me).

Tom Vasel: While I don't think more awards are needed, I would like to see some new types of awards, like "Game designer of the Year", "Best game by a new company", etc.

spacerx: Melissa:, I think there is a contingent of geeks who take small things too seriously and flood BGG with bickering

Sumo: Who votes on those Tom? Geek denizens?

Melissa: Thanks, Fawkes,. I'm still not up on all the awards, mainly because we mostly look at BGG comments.

Tycho:There’s no point having a BGG award separate from the rating system.

spacerx: I think BGG comments are more useful than awards

Melissa: spacerx, this is not the place for comments like that, put it in a geeklist please.

Fawkes: Tom, you're on the IGA panel, maybe you can suggest that those be added :wink:

Fizzix: I think ONE set of awards would lend credibility. The more awards you have the less value/prestige/usefulness they have.

nnf1: Yeah Tom why would you want those?

Tom Vasel: I don't know,

Sumo:. Some existing award jury (IGA) would be ideal.

Tom Vasel: I'm not on the IGA panel.

nnf1: Again why have these awards?

nnf1: What is the purpose?

Sumo: I am on panel. Would voting on something else just perpetuate our views?

Tom Vasel: I think that game designers should get more credit.

Melissa: The problem with awards like Designer of the year etc is that *most* gamers (and even most euro gamers) don't know or care who designed the games. So it's a very small contingent who would know or care.

Fawkes: Fizzix, - Next to impossible. I don't know of any industry with a single award-giving body.

Tom Vasel: And it would be nice to have an award that a small company has a chance of winning.

Fawkes: Besides, Knizia would win every time.

RooieKazooie: An award that gives a boost to small publishers would be very good

Tom Vasel: Would he?

tenhole: We could have an awards ceremony and everything... "And the Geekie for best bit in a supporting role goes to..."

tenhole: I don't mean to make fun... I like the idea too

Fizzix: I agree with you Fawkes: which is why I think that awards are not useful.

MikeMKH Small publishers need all the help they can get.

Sumo: I see what you are getting at Tom. If I took the last year, it would be an unknown designer who would get my vote.

Tycho:It's certainly hard not to give credit for his industry

Tom Vasel: Sumo, who?

Tom Vasel: Not getting too silly, tenhole, but why not? Why not have best designer, best publisher, etc.? Wouldn't that help get names out there?

Melissa: Good awards can be worth cash to designers, as increased sales and increased interest in future designs (possibly even the chance of an easier sale of their next design)

Sumo: Designers of Friedrich, Jenseits von Theben, and Richard Breese.

spacerx: I think the game awards are mostly for the converted, not mainstream attention

nnf1: Melissa, I agree with SdJ in Germany but do others really? I'm genuinely asking cause I thought not.

Tom Vasel: Well, I've obviously heard of Breese, but not of Theben.

Fawkes: Fizzix - but it's human nature. We like naming "winners" and giving out awards. It's a form of marketing, after all. See how the SdJ practically guarantees thousands of units of sales?

Melissa: Neil, we don't necessarily. It's good to have industry awards, as a celebration of the industry and as a form of recognition. Whether there's a need for *different* awards o r*more* awards (or fewer awards) is an open question, I think.

MikeMKH True, unless we run a Super Bowl ad (hehe).

Tom Vasel: And THAT, exactly, is what awards are good for.

spacerx: if we had some sort of award, why mimic what's already done?

Tom Vasel: Now Sumo: has me interested in something that up 'til now, I knew nothing about.

Tom Vasel: Awards generate interest.

Fawkes: Just like winning the Best Picture award gets you more screens and runs...

nnf1: Ah Melissa: I agree with that celebrating the industry

Melissa: Well Rooie at least has bought a game based on its awards And I think that's what we looked at when we bought Carcassonne in our pre-BGG days (had played & enjoyed it, then browsed the brochure looking at the award winners)

spacerx: any statistics linking awards to sales?

nnf1: But have all these awards really helped push more units in say England, USA and Australia

nnf1: Do we need to take a different marketing view

Tycho:Sadly, celebrity endorsements would get more sales than extra awards

Karlsen: SDJ is worth 150,000 + sales

Karlsen: Most of which are in Germany admittedly, but still a sale is a sale for the publisher

Tom Vasel: When I first starting buying games, I bought the top ten at BGG, and as many award winners as I could find.

Melissa: Tycho, true. Where's Drew Barrymore when we need her?

Tom Vasel: Even now, I always check out the award winners, as they just spark my interest.

nnf1: I remember GW used to tote about which celebrities played WarHammer, etc

MikeMKH Me too, Tom.

Sumo: Ask the designer of Um Reifenbreite how many he sold as a SdJ winner!

Fawkes: nnf1: - not really, but not surprising. Winning the SdJ may have helped get TtR into Wal-Mart though.

Melissa: Sumo:: not a success?

RooieKazooie: I knew nothing about the game and when I saw all the awards it had received I thought "hey this must be good". The game was Sid Meier's Civilization. The awards were the origins best historical board game, wargamer.com' board game of the year and board game

Karlsen: Neil - they probably do help with the converted, i.e. the gamers. To the general public unlikely. If a buyer at somewhere like Myer, Toys 'r Us took notice then maybe they would

Sumo: No, a bomb. Too complicated, and a sports game to boot.

Tycho:yes, maybe the value of awards is not to us or the general public, but convincing Wal-Mart to go for game a over game B

Tanrec: nnf1:, which celebrities DID play WarHammer?


Karlsen: Sum - that would probably be an exception as regards to the SDJ. As they say there are only two sure things in life...

RooieKazooie: But when the awards go to games like SMC?

RooieKazooie: Is that really what we want non-gamers to be steered towards?

Fizzix: Wal-Mart is not the target for the games we play. It will end our hobby.

Karlsen: For the Aussies - Richard Stubbs is a wargamer and table top miniature wargamer from *way* back

Sumo: It is an exception, but it is one of the factors that pushed the SDJ to look for more populist titles.

Tom Vasel: I'm just curious as to whether the Origins Awards committee knows that the board game world in unison scorn them?

GROGnads: well I do KNOW that ''Vin Diesel'' plays D&D

Tom Vasel: Fizzix:, I disagree. Getting better games in Wal-Mart will not hurt the hobby.

Fawkes: Tom - is that just us EuroGeeks, or even the Monopoly-playing population of the world?

Sumo: I think the point Tom is do they know, or care? Committee being the key word.

MikeMKH I think Wal-Mart would hurt the hobby.

MikeMKH Think about Video Games in the 80s.

Fawkes: Fizzix: - how can getting a larger distribution pipe harm *any* hobby or business for that matter?

Sumo: Why mike?

Melissa: We've started evangelizing about gaming (mostly to daughter the elder's friends' parents) and are finding that there's quite a bit of interest about them.

GROGnads: well Wal-Mart did have ''Heroscape''

Tom Vasel: I guess us, Fawkes:. Maybe I'm too "high and mighty"

Fawkes: MikeMKH - that was the stupidity of the companies, not the distribution

Melissa: So I think more distribution for light-to-middling games would be good for the hobby - Mike, I'm not familiar with the Wal-Mart '80s story so am not sure how that would translate.

GROGnads: and we have NO other 'means' of Games around HERE anymore

Fawkes: Tom - it was more of a question. I don't know how companies like Hasbro and Milton Bradley view the Origins Awards.

Karlsen: MikeMKH - Something different happen in America than in Australia? What did happen to video games in the 80s? After they killed the radio star that is

spacerx: where the big companies look at bottom line

Fawkes: DoW, Eagle/Uberplay and FFG were certainly interested enough to submit games for consideration

spacerx: for them that's the award

tenhole: I think it'd probably be a wash. The big chains are gonna rely on volume, as always. Maybe non-gamers would get exposed to some better games, but think about it. We all started on Monopoly and Candy Land, and we're all here.

RooieKazooie: Hasbro must have some interest because they submitted Betrayal at house on the hill and it managed to get nominated

GROGnads: it was VIDEO and NOT really 'games' that 'killed the Radio Star''

Fizzix: I'm not an economics expert. ...But Wal-Mart deals in the lowest common denominator. They dictate the rules for sales and demand a low cost

MikeMKH Wal-Mart could push out the little guys (timewellspent, etc) and then people would just start making mass type games (like they did in the 80s with Video Games), so now we may have a state where board games would kill themselves.

Tycho:Maybe Tom knows, but are DoW, Eagle/Uberplay and FFG companies that like to push a lot of review copies?

Tom Vasel: DoW and Eagle/Uberplay do review copies, but I don't think FFG does

Fawkes: - I'm in distribution. It's the call of the companies. Carrying cost of the inventory is the publisher's cost.

GROGnads: oh MAN then that truly MEANS that the 'Awards' are WORTHLESS if ''Betrayal'' got a 'nom'

Karlsen: Although is that because Video Games didn't already have their own niche shops like Games do?

Gola:: The problem with Eurogames in the Wal-Mart space is that variety is part of the gestalt of the whole eurogaming scene (if you can call it that)...

Fawkes: Publishers also usually have to take any and all returns from large, powerful retailers, which is why their demand forecasting has better berealistic

Gola:: If Americans were to be playing a game, they don't want to be playing one of 100 good ones, they want to be playing the same one that "everyone" is playing.

Karlsen: Ah Betrayal. Could be the first award winner since Air War for "The errata weights almost as much as the game" Award

Gola:: Americans would want there to be ONE Eurogame, not a list of a thousand to choose from.

spacerx: good games are good games regardless of awards or sales

Fizzix: Which is why I think that small game companies would get crushed by Wal-Mart. One flop and they are screwed.

Tycho:Apart from us in this scene, most people like playing the same thing over

spacerx: mass distribution can affect 'what's hot now', but not whether a game is good

Melissa: Joe, I can see that. We're always being asked why we have so *many* games (and our collection doesn't fill even one of Tom V's bookshelves!)

Fawkes: Well, you guys are the Americans, so you know your market better. People won't bother to learn silly little card games like Mamma Mia, Coloretto or King's Breakfast?

tenhole: Eh, dunno. People learned Phase 10... gets played by a lot of non-gamers...

Tom Vasel: I think card games have a level of "acceptability" in some American circles that board games will never achieve. Don't ask me why.

spacerx: only enthusiasts search out the smaller game companies

Fizzix: Fawkes:, those games won't sell themselves without someone to show it to customer

Fawkes: Fizzix: - that's the reality of any product from a small company, regardless of type s

spacerx: for all others, if it isn't on the Wal-Mart shelf, it doesn't exist

Tycho:if someone explains the rules well, most things will go over well

Melissa: Interestingly, one of the free "parenting" monthly newspapers here started to run reviews of Euro games for a while - we know a small online games seller and he said that was a huge boost to his business. So there is interest out there, and people are willing to go hunting for the games once they know they exist.

Fizzix: Tycho, that why the games we play need to be sold in small shops. In Wal-Mart, people will reach for what they know.

Tycho:re "hunting for games" - why the ?Simply Fun idea is an interesting one, pushing games out to people

RooieKazooie: Maybe its because when people think board games they think monopoly while when they think card games they think of poker or bridge which are though of more highly

Fawkes: I'd still be interesting in how the big, bitty games like Heroscape, Doom, BaHotH and WotR are doing with the non-Geek population. Are they selling better than, say, TtR?

Gola:: -I would bet money that they are.

Gola:: -if it could be themed to an existing franchise--doesn't matter which one--it would sell.

Fawkes: - if the data indicates that, then we add nice bits to Puerto Rico and Euphrat & Tigris, re-theme them to pirates and monsters, and unleash them on America

Tom Vasel: All right, I have eleven pages of gobbledy-gook. Anyone want to make any final comments before I wrap this up?

MikeMKH Good luck, Tom.

skrutsch I just want do say, Good Luck, Tom. You've got your work cut out for you.

spacerx: don't sit in spilled chocolate milk

Fizzix: Sorry we let you down Tom.

Tycho:I’m trying to think of a pithy comment as a closer but coming up blank

Gola:: Don't follow leaders.

Karlsen: Nice to see so many people here. Good luck with the editing Tom

spacerx: we leave you with this very important reminder...

Tom: Bye all!